I just realized, you are the only person posting here. Is that correct?

Not exactly, no.   Clark Thompson posts things.  If you post to him, he doesn't usually answer back; but I decided to keep the forum open as long as he wanted to keep using it.  I haven't been posting here and was surprised when you showed up since I had no idea how you found out about it. 

If you're looking for an active forum, you may want to reconsider your plans since you won't see much activity here.

This is a softball. Thank you. Standing and kneeling are not a matter of "doctrine". They change from country to country depending on accepted Liturgical practices in those regions. So, no doctrine was changed.

A study of the Bible suggests that standing in the Presence of the Holy is the proper way to give respect. 

Many people have difficulty differentiating levels and types of Catholic teachings and practices. "Doctrines" are universal, and infallibly defined doctrines are Dogmas.

Then there are various traditions and disciplines which can change, some univerals, some regional.

Example: Celibacy for Latin Rite priests is universal, but its just a discipline, which means a pope can change it anytime he wants to.

The question arises how far any Bishop's authority extends in the matter of practices once a church council has ruled on it in order to establish conformity.   

The Bishop of Rome or his representative agreed to Canon 20.  Up to that point, I could agree with the argument that standing, kneeling and even sitting while praying were acceptable.  Bishops had not agreed in a council how best to achieve church unity.  When the Catholic Church altered their practice,  they offended the Orthodox Church whose practice remained that of standing.   Does a Pope's authority extend that far that he can annul canons established by Ecumenical Councils?   Does the Pope's authority justify altering practices which they had agreed to before when the altering create rifts or schisms in the Body of Christ?   

You moderate Catholic discussion? Shouldn't you know the basics if you do that?

That title of moderator was given for the whole forum.  My role as moderator is not to act as the thought police or the defender of purity of doctrine,  my role is to try to keep things rational and peaceful. 

I was aware you might make the point that this was a practice.  My question  rests on your point. 

I am of the opinion myself that our practices are not as important as church unity.   However, if a Pope signed onto canons of an ecumenical Council as a way of creating church unity,  then altering course and changing the practice seems wrong to me if it creates friction and schisms.   It also strikes me as close to breaking an agreement.   And more, I would say the Catholic Church has eroded its own authority by claiming its ability to lead by altering  practices after  reaching agreements about them. 

We saw something similar with the establishing of the date for Easter.   Various churches had different ways of calculating it.   The Council of Nicea ruled that everyone should follow the calendar and system of the Church of Rome.  I think  that was probably a good thing.  Does it matter what the date is?  Not that much to me, but I can see why early Christians desired unity among themselves over the matter.   

England has two systems side by side, creating problems.  One system had been introduced by the tradition established by St. John.  The other system followed the Roman calendar and system.  When the English debated the matter, they decided (correctly I think) to follow the Roman system -- not because that calendar was "right" and St. John's had been wrong.   No, it was to show respect for the role of the Bishops of Rome.   

That was established, and then later the Catholics changed their calendar!  Can't you see people throwing up their hands in despair?   After others had altered their practices to be in unity with Rome, Rome veered off and changed their system.    The Orthodox Church refused to adopt the new calendar; and the Coptic Orthodox Church was thrown into confusion.  The Coptic Orthodox Church was still asking the Catholic Church about this last year.  Both sides would like to have a unified calendar.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-and-coptic-orthodox-patriarch-tawadros-ii-sign-joint-declarati

6. This love finds its deepest expression in common prayer. When Christians pray together, they come to realize that what unites them is much greater than what divides them. Our longing for unity receives its inspiration from the prayer of Christ “that all may be one” (John 17:21). Let us deepen our shared roots in the one apostolic faith by praying together and by seeking common translations of the Lord’s Prayer and a common date for the celebration of Easter.

I think it safe to say too that often practices, if maintained through history, often demonstrate with great clarity that some doctrines have been held historically.   Consider the great care that clergy take not to let even one crumb of the Eucharist fall on the floor.   It is a practice, but I can't dismiss it as a mere practice devoid of doctrine since the reverence shown demonstrates the belief in the Real Presence.   

Similarly I can not dismiss the historical evidence of the early Christians praying for the dead as being devoid of doctrine.   The practice of praying for the dead is evidence for me of a doctrine. 

As for the celibacy of the clergy?    Is this a practice that a Pope can make decisions about?    Who should be a Bishop?   Paul said someone who was married and who had demonstrated he knew how to bring up his own children.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Can a Pope overrule what Paul wrote?  I find what Paul wrote  as "sound doctrine."  If you're going to pick someone to be a shepherd over sheep,  you do well to choose someone whose life shows  wisdom and gentleness along with strength.  Love for the sheep requires it. 

That brings up another canon of Nicene Council about how Bishops should be selected.   The Catholic Church no longer follows those practices.  They also move Bishops around, contrary to the rules established at Nicea.  I was very interested when Pope Francis started paying attention to the matter -- some priests are not interested in being a Bishop somewhere they don't like.  They have ambition, always wanting to be promoted.  They also tend to flatter whoever the current Pope is because he often plays a role in promotions by translation.   Sad to say, some Bishops are more interested in flattering the Pope than in tending their Bishoprics. 

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/04/03/pope-seminarians-using-church-personal-ambition-plague/

Do not settle for a worry-free, comfortable life with an unhealthy attachment to money and an ambitious heart yearning for honors, Pope Francis told seminarians studying in Rome.

“I’m telling you this as a brother, father and friend. Please, shun ecclesial careerism. It is a plague. Avoid it,” he said April 1 during an audience at the Vatican with students, faculty, staff and alumni of the Pontifical Spanish College of St. Joseph in Rome. The college was celebrating the 125th anniversary of its founding.

I wish him well in trying  to root out this kind of careerism.  I'd suggest returning to the practice agreed to at Nicea.  Some practices make sense and should not be changed.  People in Rome should not be making decisions at the local level of who is elected Bishop or of moving Bishops around.  It's not practical for one thing; and it's ignoring the canons of Nicea which were written to protect the Church as well as to create unity.  Apostles move around.  Bishops should stay put and tend their flocks.  I take the idea of Bishop as shepherd as good doctrine; so I see moving Bishops around as undermining that doctrine.   

Pope Francis also been talking about allowing married clergy.  Good for him. I would go further and would implement  the advice of St. Paul that required someone to be married in order to be promoted to Bishop.   Setting aside what Paul wrote and asserting that a Pope can differ with him because it's "only a practice" has led to various problems in the Catholic Church that has damaged its reputation by creating scandal.   The measure to judge practices by is love.  Does a practice work to establish order, unity, and love?  If so, it's a good practice; if not, it should be changed.   Departing from past practices can contain  perils. 

This is a bold claim.   Would you care to take a look at the Canons of the First Council of Nicea to see what was accepted then and to compare them to what is taught now? 

We could start with the last one  -- I see doctrine in practices.  Change the practices, and you may have changed some doctrines. 

20. Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees
that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one's prayers to
the Lord standing.

I believe standing when praying is also Biblical.  Standing in the presence of the Heavenly King shows respect.  Yet  today many people pray kneeling; and  many places of worship have pews.   

If you assert this is a matter of practice only, it is still problematical since the Orthodox Church disagreed for hundreds of years with the Catholic Church over this.  It became a source of division when the Catholic Church departed from the agreement reached in Nicea.

This is a softball. Thank you. Standing and kneeling are not a matter of "doctrine". They change from country to country depending on accepted Liturgical practices in those regions. So, no doctrine was changed.

Many people have difficulty differentiating levels and types of Catholic teachings and practices. "Doctrines" are universal, and infallibly defined doctrines are Dogmas.

Then there are various traditions and disciplines which can change, some univerals, some regional.

Example: Celibacy for Latin Rite priests is universal, but its just a discipline, which means a pope can change it anytime he wants to.

You moderate Catholic discussion? Shouldn't you know the basics if you do that?

Source: https://www.catholic.com/tract/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth


WHETHER or not you are Catholic, you may have questions about the Catholic faith. You may have heard challenges to the Catholic Church’s claim to be the interpreter and safeguard of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
 
Such challenges come from door-to-door missionaries who ask, "Are you saved?", from peer pressure that urges you to ignore the Church’s teachings, from a secular culture that whispers "There is no God"
 
You can’t deal with these challenges unless you understand the basics of the Catholic faith. This booklet introduces them to you.
 
In Catholicism you will find answers to life’s most troubling questions: Why am I here? Who made me? What must I believe? How must I act? All these can be answered to your satisfaction, if only you will open yourself to God’s grace, turn to the Church he established, and follow his plan for you (John 7:17).
 
AN UNBROKEN HISTORY
 
Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
 
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
 
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.
 
Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.
 
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.
 
Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.
 
FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
 
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
 
The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
 
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.
 
His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).
 
Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.
 
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7– 8 )
 
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).
 
But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).
 
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
 
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).
 
For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).
 
Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).
 
The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.
 
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
 
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).
 
These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.
 
Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.
 
Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth
 
Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).
 
He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.
 
The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).
 
Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

Continued.......

Micah 2:1-2
KJV 1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand. 2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.
WEB 1 Woe to those who devise iniquity and work evil on their beds! When the morning is light, they practice it, because it is in the power of their hand. 2 They covet fields, and seize them; and houses, and take them away: and they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.

These are my thoughts, please share yours.

1 Before Christ this would have been us and this could and to some degree even as Christians be something we struggle with. We should strive for good as believers rather then make plans for sin but the world has nothing but to do this because this haven’t received the hope found in Jesus.

2 The world takes what they want often times. It is the attitude that it is all about me, this is a life long battle for us as Christians to think of others more then we do ourselves. We are to show love for others this shows Christ, loving self shows the world.